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Post by Khyshaan on Aug 19, 2005 19:55:04 GMT 12
Damn Fawa that's a nice idea. I'd rather go with yours. Didn't read yours before I posted :s
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Fawa
Grunt
Posts: 26
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Post by Fawa on Aug 20, 2005 0:30:13 GMT 12
It would be almost mathimatically impossible for someone to win 3 items with zero-sum DKP as after the first item they would be getting say a -40 DKP score and after the second a -80 DKP score applied to there rolls. in addition the other players in the raid would have +DKP added.
A secondly we could still apply a 1 item per raid rule.
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Post by Insequor on Sept 7, 2005 4:15:30 GMT 12
Hey guys, good to see that the DKP system has come up again for some discussion. After a frustrating period, we are slowly moving closer to our targets once again. Anyway, from what I have read, I like the idea of the Zero-sum system. However, I have one issue that I feel very strongly about. Basically, I think the actual amount of points need to be carefully considered. Because we will (due to being MC rookies) take a long time to get anywhere, I can imagine that for a long time, we will be running only the first 1 - 2 bosses. Also, (from a shaman point of view) there will be a lot of competition for items (say roughly 12 shaman per 40man)... With these two facts considered, we then need to look at the example given... 2x 40DKP items drop.. hooray, I get +2DKP. Then we all roll, and I roll an 87 and win the roll, hooray again... I now have a nice item and negative 38 points... ok Another 11 MC runs go by, and due to my lack of DKP, (statistically) I win nothing... thats fine, all the other 11 shaman need an item too, then its all even again.. right? Well, yes... except for one important factor, and the whole reason that DKP is implemented in the first place... After those 11 MC runs of getting nothing.. (and remember these are 5+ hour runs, once per week ie. 3 months)... a then lvl 20 shaman has now leveled to 60, and he's here for MC.. and he still has a slightly higher chance to win something than I do.... Add a bit of bad luck into the equation, and there will most definitely be 5 or 6 of us shaman getting nothing for 4 or 5 months... I dont mean to sound loot greedy, but hey, if Im going to spend 5 months running MC, I want to have the choice to beat the first timers on a roll... After-all, isn't this the whole point of DKP? Im not saying the system won't work.. dont get me wrong.. Im just saying that the luck/DKP balance needs to be carefully considered.. for example, each item that drops gives each player say.. 8 points... but the item if won, only subtracts the 40 point cost... therefore, after winning it first, it will only take 5 weeks to get back to a level field again. but of course the players that didnt win, would have by now collected 48 DKP, and would therefore be ahead of the first timers, instead of equal with them. I know that the players who can only come to 1 out of every 5 MC runs will have less chance than the ones who had been there every time, but the difference wouldnt be so great that they had no chance, and they would still be equal with the players who had already won and item... Anywho.... Im a bit tired at the moment, so I hope this makes sense.. anyway, I think we need to very carefully discuss the points.. afterall, we do need to look after the players who cant come very often and we dont want them to miss out on gear... but on the other hand, we dont want our core players that attend every time, to feel like they have less chance to get items if first timers come along, or not to be rewarded for thier efforts.. Thanks for putting up with my spiel.
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Post by Insequor on Sept 7, 2005 4:44:07 GMT 12
Actually, while Im in the mood for typing.. (sorry! ;D ), I would also like to remind people of a situation that arose from "discussing and deciding" who would get items, that may have some impact on how we decide who can roll on what.. A while back, we did a guild run to UBRS.. As Im sure some of you know, there are epic armour quests, that require an ultra-rare purple item (along with other mats) that is used to make (in this case) Mail Leggings... There were only a few of us in the raid that had the quest, and needed the item.. I was one of these players, and I rolled the highest. However, there was discussion from our run leaders, about how supplying Wickedone (our then hopeful primaray MC tank) with the Epic Armour, would be more beneficial to our guild as a whole... We were discussing it, and obviously, I wasnt particularly keen on giving up this ultra-rare item, but in order to get a clear answer I didnt pick it up straight away... then, while we were discussing.. up came the good ol' "Wickedone receives loot [Epic Dragon Scale]" (or whatever it was called)... And so, I feel a little pissed, but not too much, because I think that our main tank will be slightly better for it, and Ill get something in MC thats better... Cut only 1 week forward, and what's happened? Wickedone has deleted his character, along with the item, (not to mention another 25g he owed me.. grrr ) .. and forever after, I refuse to give up an item that A) I need B) I won the roll on. This is starting to be a bit of a flame, so Ill leave it at that... but my point here, is that I for one, dont trust other people to make the decisions on what I can and cant get, and therefore I am strongly opposed to the ML having too much say in things... I mean, if a 'perfect' 'ultimate' mage ring drops.. (ie +15 int, +34 spell dmg, +2% spell crit, and +8 mana regen), and I think it will be good for my PvP elemental build when I respec... Im sure as hell gonna want a chance to use my DKP and roll on it... I cant speak for everyone, but just a thought... Be careful before you say 'let people decide who gets what'. Thanks again for putting up with my 'in depth' thoughts. ;D
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Post by wickedone on Sept 7, 2005 22:22:19 GMT 12
Thx for the flame Insequor, always nice to cop bullshit after the fact, here are a few facts for you.
1.) Your post insinuated that i ninja'd the Chromatic Caraspace, just so you know, i was asked in a PM to just grab it, otherwise selfish people such as yourself would have taken it, and frankly it was worth 20 times as much to me as an MC tank then it would be for some silly shaman who really doesnt have any specific roll in an MC raid.
2.) I noticed that you are 1 of the top ranking PvPers on the WoW Website for Darkspear, basically you are competing very well Vs people who PvP non-stop day in and day out, i congratulate you on your rank although it shows your dedication to help out other guildys get geared up needs to be looked at badly, with attitudes like yours running rampant, Kiwis will never see MC in guild only runs.
3.) At the time in question i didnt/wasnt even considering quiting WoW and/or deleting Wickedone.
4.) Guess how many people helped me get my 10xBlood of Heros(A required item for Breastplate of Chromatic Flight), 1, yes thats right, the future MAIN TANK FOR KIWIS MC RAIDS had 1 helper to get his Blood of Heros, that 1 person was Ofal. Ofal himself was pretty sad that no one would help me get this Chestpiece which would have helped our guild as a whole dramatically in MC.
5.) Not only that, but on several occasions i tried to set up Strath, Scholo, UBRS, LBRS and BRD runs in my last few weeks to help get guildys geared up, at peak hour for our guild with 25+ peeps online, 15+ of which were lvl 58+, the best i could get was 4 guildys to come with me, everyone else was either waiting for or actually in WSG or AV, great commitment i saw there(This happened almost every night mind you, 98% of my attempts to set up guild raids failed), really gave me drive to stay and help the guild suceed in End-Game content.
And finally 6.) I was always willing to help, i loved PvP like most of us, but i always put the guild first, a trait that many Kiwis including yourself could not relate to.
Continue to live in your own little self rightoues world and flame innocent parties for your own shortfalls in companionship and family/working as a team.
Im glad im no longer around to have to deal with it.
KTHX BYE
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Post by Insequor on Sept 7, 2005 23:39:47 GMT 12
Hello Wickedone I didnt realise you still kept in contact. Nice to see you still around. I apologise if my statements came across as a flame, and I did realise it was looking that way, but it was not my intent, or the point I was trying to make. I would however, like to answer to a few of your points. 1.) I didnt suggest that you ninja'd it, I said that it was discussed that it would be better for you, and I also said that I didnt mind too much, because it was of benefit to the guild, that you would be better equipped as our main tank. 2.) Thankyou for noticing that I am making headway in PvP. I am trying hard to build some PvP ranking while I am on holiday. Plus I enjoy it, and am still doing runs almost every night with the guild, and help out lower level guildies every now and then when they need it. 3.) That's fine, and as I said, it was of benefit to the guild, so not a big deal. 4.) Thanks for all your help getting me healing gear as I would be a healer in MC... oh wait... 5.) Kiwis is a friendly, helpful guild.. that's it. While a lot of us would like to be able to go to MC, not everyone has the time or even wants to spend hours and hours on end, grinding instances, when there is fun PvP. We are not solely a MC guild. We cant expect everyone to have the same focus. 6.) I was always very grateful for you efforts at helping out the guild, and you are right, that is a great attribute for any guild member to have. And I have to be honest, I dont put the guild first, I balance out helping the guild with my own game enjoyment, after-all, enjoying the game is why I play. Perhaps that's why you quit? Because you weren't enjoying the game anymore... I don't know.. Im sorry that this discussion has ended up in our forums, and I apologise if I had offended you, I was just showing a good example of why we need to discuss how loot is decided. To anyone else who is reading this, Wickedone did NOT ninja the item, it was the run leaders and officers who were also on the run, that discussed who should get the item, .. that's why Im saying we need to arrange rules before hand. And to Wickedone, I am NOT flaming. I am NOT 'self righteous', I am merely voicing an opinion that could have some impact on how people look at our looting system. I hope that in any reply or future messages, you can be equally constructive. (btw, any word on the 25g?)
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Post by Sagan on Sept 8, 2005 12:05:18 GMT 12
Firstly, we have a new site www.kiwisguild.tk. Secondly, Darkspear is a pvp server and if people want to concentrate on pvp that's their right. Thirdly, if certain items on runs are going to go to predetermined people for the greater good then it should be stated at the outset.
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